Achieving substrate-independent minds: no, we cannot ‘copy’ brains
August 24, 2011 by Randal A. Koene
On August 18, IBM published an intriguing update of their work in the DARPA SyNAPSE program, seeking to create efficient new computing hardware that is inspired by the architecture of neurons and neuronal networks in the brain.
At carboncopies.org, we strive to take this research a step further: to bring about and nurture projects that are crucial to achieving substrate-independent minds (SIM). That is, enable minds to operate on many different hardware platforms — not just a neural substrate. And we seek realistic routes to SIM.
But what is it that those projects should accomplish?
When you transfer a mind from its biological substrate to another sufficiently powerful computing architecture, that mind has become substrate-independent. In that case, complete access is gained in a way that enables you to transfer its relevant data. Such minds still depend on a substrate to run, but you can operate on a variety of different substrates.
Life expansion
What do you do with a substrate-independent mind? Backing up, copying and restoring minds can be aspects of a robust route to life extension. But SIM researchers are particularly interested in enhancement, competitiveness and adaptability.
We can think of this as “life expansion.”
This has been described to some degree in my article, Pattern survival versus Gene survival. Imagine a mind that can think many times faster than we do now, and can access knowledge databases such as the Internet as intimately as we access our memories now.
In addition to minds that are copies of a human mind, we are interested in man-machine merger, or rather in the ability of man to keep pace with machine and share the future together. Other-than-human substrate-independent minds are therefore necessarily also topics of SIM. In this context, it is worth noting that a SIM is a type of artificial general intelligence (AGI). But an AGI is also a type of SIM, since the AGI should be able to take advantage of any sufficiently powerful computing platform. The two areas of research are closely related.
How to create a SIM
So there are at least two ways to successfully create a substrate-independent mind: implementing a mind in a synthetic neural system or transferring the existing characteristic information — and the functions that process that information — from a specific mind into an implementation that operates in another substrate.
Are both of those legitimate goals of SIM?
A synthetic neural system and the transfer of information about an existing neural system to a synthetic implementation do share many technological requirements, but there are some significant differences that appear when you consider the possible scope of each of those aims. For example, how complex must the neurons of a synthetic neural system be? A simple spiking neuron is a computational element that integrates weighted input received through numerous synaptic connections and delivers a spike of activity when that integral reaches a threshold.
We can certainly imagine that a synthetic neural system composed of simple spiking neurons could carry out useful work as a flexible and powerful neuromorphic computer.

Neuron (credit: Wikipedia user LadyofHats, public domain)
But how does that compare with a human brain? The neurons of the human brain, or of any biological brain, are not simple spiking neurons. As we zoom in and examine the composition of a biological neuron, as we take note of the intricacy of its biological machinery, we learn that each individual neuron is in fact an incredibly complex biological entity. To capture all of its behavior might require analysis and simulation down to the molecular level, or even to the subatomic level if we care about every possible environmental effect that interaction with the neuron can have.
Does that matter? That depends on your goals. We must concede that at some level, somewhere between the spiking of the neurons and their subatomic behavior, cumulative non-linear behavior may lead to results that differ significantly from those of a simple spiking neuron. This is certain, as it has proven to be quite hard for computational neuroscientists to develop precise models of single neurons that produce spikes at exactly the same times as a biological neuron would, given the same input1. And spike timing is crucial for computation in many operations of the biological brain.
Mind uploading
If we care about more than just the train of spikes generated by a neuron, the challenge becomes ever so much greater. If the goal is to create a synthetic neural system that can do useful things, those intricacies may not matter. But what if the goal is to take one person’s specific human mind and move it to another substrate in such a way that the experience of the mind’s thought processes and sensations are not disturbed? What if we want to consider a transfer to SIM as a means of continuing a human being’s existence? That is the putative achievement often called “mind uploading.”
Could we create a synthetic brain that is not identical with the biological brain on the molecular or subatomic level, but is functionally identical at every level at which it could interact with its environment, interact within itself, and through time?
The answer is no. That is simply not possible.
At some level, no matter how precise the emulation in another substrate, there is a divergence. In the parlance of information theory, this is a Kullback-Leibler divergence (or KL divergence). KL divergence measures the divergence, expressed as additional bits required to code samples from a probability distribution P when using a code based on a probability distribution Q. The most optimal encoding of samples from Q will not be optimal for samples from P if P ≠ Q.
In plain English, KL divergence evaluates the overhead of an emulation. Physically, what does this overhead mean? It means that we pay a penalty for implementing one computing method in another method. We cannot, using exactly the same space and time, carry out the same computational processes as in the original biological brain and produce the exact same effects, both internal and external interactions. We cannot do better than the physical elements that are carrying out their own natural processes (or computations, if you like). E.g., a particle’s spin is the optimal expression of that characteristic and is not represented as efficiently in any model of that spin.
Fidelity trade-offs
Fortunately for SIM, this problem is actually a straw man. Do we really care about every possible process, every possible interaction? By analogy, when we want to run Macintosh programs on a PC, do we actually care about the precise patterns in space and time in which the Mac computer architecture is heating up its environment? We usually do not care about such things. We just want the programs to run and to produce the expected results.
We can emulate the Mac on a PC and run Mac programs, even if the underlying architectures are different. We may even be able to emulate one architecture on another and thereby improve the performance of the programs we wish to run!
Similarly, SIM is not about crafting perfect copies of brains or copying everything about the way they work in their environment. Since we already have the original biological implementation that interacts and decays exactly as it does, what would be the point?
SIM certainly includes the goal of creating a synthetic neural system. It is both about creating something that can perform as well or outperform the original system in the ways that we care about, and about creating a process that, when desired, can provide for a faithful transition from one system to another by emulation.
It is possible to select abstraction levels within a functional architecture and to create alternate implementations of the functions at that level. If this were not the case, the entire field of artificial intelligence (AI) research would have no hope of achieving human-level or better performance on tasks that human brains can carry out. We already know that AI systems can match and exceed human performance in a variety of tasks.
When we speak of SIM as a combination of a process (“uploading”) and of an objective (to achieve a “substrate-independent mind”), it is really about collecting the parameter values at the chosen abstraction level and re-implementing the dynamics with those parameter values at that abstraction level in a desired target platform. That is SIM.
There certainly is some relationship between such a process and means of life-extension that the notion of “copying the brain” evokes, a transition from human to post-human existence. Unfortunately, most discussions that focus on this aspect of the endeavor are relatively vague and unclear. In contrast, the ideas behind SIM are actually quite crisp and clear.
Note that it is also possible to devise an uploading procedure that provides the experience of an unbroken transition, even if it is a transition to something that is at some implementation level different from a prior existence based on a biological brain. For example, it is not necessary for the process to be perceived as abrupt, strange, or even uncomfortable. Avoiding such experiences is a matter of process implementation. The mind, at least at the level chosen for re-implementation (and further work), can be quite good at making everything it experiences seem perfectly sensible. We do that all the time (and sometimes we even confabulate reality).
So, despite objections about the differences between biological and other hardware — and the resulting implementation of a SIM, it is quite possible that if each of your neurons and synapses were replaced one by one with something else, you might not notice.
This article arose from a discussion with colleagues. I would like to thank both of these colleagues (you know who you are) for their useful critiques during that discussion.
Comments (10)
by sam farkus
I think in the early phases, people will get an implant or ‘blank prosthetic’ and connect it to your brain, just for personal enhancement. This will be done to increase IQ or memory, implant skills, etc. – without intent of using it for a ‘mind upload’. “Mind uploads” won’t be sanctioned because the testing would probably kill people. Over the years, however, early adopters of brain enhancements will find that their organic brain adapts to use both brains for more and more thought processes, as an unintended consequence. As the organic brain dies, consciousness may persist naturally in these early adopters, having partially retreated to the prosthetic. They will lose some functionality as parts of their organic brain die, as brain damage victims do, but are still sentient. This would effectively accomplishing mind uploading by accident!
by joeThorpe
Slow, one cell at a time nano replacement. Happens over the course of a few years.
Sci-fi yes, but it would solove the “2 mind” problem.
by OkinKun
“Uploading” most certainly WILL be possible, someday, but it will require far more advanced technology than we can even partially comprehend right now, and an incredible level of knowledge in many areas.
And “uploading” is a TERRIBLE word for describing the process. “transfer” is a little better, but it still requires even more explanation than that.
I’d imagine that it will require something like nanobots.. Something fully programmable, controllable, networked, and which can communicate directly with brain cells, in the same way that they communicated with other brain cells. With a very large number of brain-cell-imitating nanobots we might be able to use a gradual process of replacing individual cells, or at least tiny groups of cells, and have the nanobots take on those cells’ functions. This process would have to ensure that the communication between cells in the brain, remain relatively uninterrupted, even as they’re being replaced by nanobots. At least if you want the original consciousness to be the one experiencing the transfer.
Eventually this process leaves you with a more manipulatable brain, which you can then use to perform a similar transfer process, into a Simulated construct or replacement body.
Only problem I see, is that it will take quite a while before we have the technology and the knowledge to accomplish such a hugely complex task. I can only hope I manage to live long enough. lol
by eldras
I dont share your conclusion nor your science.
Of course metaphore transfer is possible because t is NOT demonstrably impossible.
The brain is one path to intelligence. There are many forms of it in nature as all lfe is intelligence, in that it is survival by problem solving.
Reverse engineering the brain is only a mapping science and that is dependent on availabe computer processing.
There are many ways to describe something: one is ‘what do it do, rather than what is it?
Also there is the advance formula:
we are building increasingly intelligent systems.
They are helping build still more intelligent systems.
At some point consummate recursion will be a fact and accelerated denoument here!
It’s great ibm are so orienteering.
Our large aim is the relief of suffering and death.
by jose raul saez castillo
instalar la inteligencia motora, pudiera ser dificil, pero trabajar con lo existente ,conocido en imágenes pudiere ser factible, entonces pudiere ser que la mente humana trabajaría mediante un patrón conocido. existiendo la posibilidad de lograr cualquier pensamiento-movilidad-incluso gran creatividad al aportar aspectos olvidados en la materia requerida, la mente humana es infinita en creación+ siempre adelante iluminando caminos en nuestro planeta
by eldras
Es el miond humanos infinito?
Entonces, tenemos todo en nuestro interior.
¡Por supuesto! Tenemos que vivir. Tenemos que sobrevivir.
by Ryan Flanders
I really enjoyed the section about Kullback-Leibler divergence as it relates to substrate independent minds and the overhead of emulation. I’d like to share some additional thoughts:
To what extent, if any, do the properties of the substrate influence thought processes and decisions?
Look at RAM vs a HD, and Deep Blue vs Garry Kasparov.
The simple case is trivial: Two computers solve a math problem with one solution, and each computer is identical except computer A uses a RAM disk and computer B uses a magnetic hard disk drive. Both computers arrive at the same solution, but computer A gets the solution sooner.
But the complex case is very different from the simple case. There are many more things to think about besides math problems with only one solution. And a sufficiently intelligent, sentient, self-aware SIM would want to know as much as possible about the properties of its substrate, in order to devise the most effective strategies for solving problems–especially fuzzy problems with no clear right or wrong solution (if a solution exists).
Think about Deep Blue vs Chess Grandmaster Garry Kasparov. Kasparov, by his own estimation, considered about one move per second, vs a computer that considered 200 million moves per second. Deep Blue’s advantage was brute force speed. Kasparov’s advantage was a wealth of experience and honed intuition. Regardless of who won or lost, and regardless of whether another match was played with a faster supercomputer, the point is that Deep Blue and Kasparov each had a very different problem solving strategy as a direct result of the properties of their respective substrate.
At times, Deep Blue made an error that was obvious to Kasparov, and vice versa.
Does it matter how a thought is represented? Is a bit stored with electric charge identical to a bit stored with magnetic polarization? Well, they can be transferred losslessly from one substrate to the other, so that counts for something. But given identical starting conditions, given an intelligent, sentient, self-aware sentient mind with full knowledge of the properties of its substrate, and given a fuzzy, non-discrete problem to solve, will the two otherwise identical minds (except for their substrates with different properties) with identical initial conditions arrive at the same conclusion?
Does it matter how a thought is expressed and experienced? Think about the same mathematical idea expressed algebraically and geometrically. It’s the same mathematical idea, but it’s expressed and experienced very differently algebraically vs geometrically, and that causes us to think about the idea very differently. In some situations, an elegant geometric expression can have an analogous algebraic expression that is a garbled mess, and vice versa.
In fuzzy, real-world situations that do not have only one discrete solution, I contend that the properties of a substrate do influence the best choice for a problem-solving strategy–even when starting conditions are otherwise identical.
To what extent will substrate choice for our SIMs alter the course of human history?
I hope I’m around to find out!
Ryan Flanders
9-22-2011
by markduwe
It seems to me that the best way to ‘upload’ a brain is to induce ‘cortical mappin, or actually re-mapping’. Traumatic brain injury causes the brain to reorder memory and sensory input and output areas. There is much work to be done in this area, but I’m thinking that if you could induce re-mapping by fooling the brain into think it had a various series of traumatic injuries, one might be to compell the brain to transfer all of it’s data stored into the only part of the brain that was not traumatized, a solid state memory chip.
by tim the realist
The uploading process has already begun. The current interfaces to neural prosthetics currently operate through sensory channels. Symbolic abstraction was the beginning of this process using sounds / words and pictures / writing to record human thoughts in a different substrate. The scale and fideltiy of this has continued to improve through the vast collection of recorded human thoughts called the internet. Cell phones have allowed vastly improved interpersonal communication capabilities far exceeding our natural abilities. People rely more and more on neural prosthetics as a normal part of their daily functions. As these capabilities expand it represents a slow progression of transfer to alternate substrates.
by Brian H
Uploading is not possible. If you can replicate a mind in a substrate, you can do it simultaneously, or serially, in more than one. Each may be aware, self-aware, and confident it is the original. If the original still exists, they are obviously all wrong. Even if it doesn’t, only one could be right, so they’re all wrong.