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	<title>Comments on: Achieving substrate-independent minds: no, we cannot &#8216;copy&#8217; brains</title>
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	<link>http://www.kurzweilai.net/achieving-substrate-independent-minds-no-we-cannot-copy-brains</link>
	<description>Accelerating Intelligence</description>
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		<title>By: sam farkus</title>
		<link>http://www.kurzweilai.net/achieving-substrate-independent-minds-no-we-cannot-copy-brains/comment-page-1#comment-11616</link>
		<dc:creator>sam farkus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Mar 2012 08:50:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=126790#comment-11616</guid>
		<description>I think in the early phases, people will get an implant or &#039;blank prosthetic&#039; and connect it to your brain, just for personal enhancement.  This will be done to increase IQ or memory, implant skills, etc. - without intent of using it for a &#039;mind upload&#039;.  &quot;Mind uploads&quot; won&#039;t be sanctioned because the testing would probably kill people.  Over the years, however, early adopters of brain enhancements will find that their organic brain adapts to use both brains for more and more thought processes, as an unintended consequence.   As the organic brain dies,  consciousness may persist naturally in these early adopters, having partially retreated to the prosthetic.  They will lose some functionality as parts of their organic brain die, as brain damage victims do, but are still sentient.   This would effectively accomplishing mind uploading by accident!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think in the early phases, people will get an implant or &#8216;blank prosthetic&#8217; and connect it to your brain, just for personal enhancement.  This will be done to increase IQ or memory, implant skills, etc. &#8211; without intent of using it for a &#8216;mind upload&#8217;.  &#8220;Mind uploads&#8221; won&#8217;t be sanctioned because the testing would probably kill people.  Over the years, however, early adopters of brain enhancements will find that their organic brain adapts to use both brains for more and more thought processes, as an unintended consequence.   As the organic brain dies,  consciousness may persist naturally in these early adopters, having partially retreated to the prosthetic.  They will lose some functionality as parts of their organic brain die, as brain damage victims do, but are still sentient.   This would effectively accomplishing mind uploading by accident!</p>
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		<title>By: joeThorpe</title>
		<link>http://www.kurzweilai.net/achieving-substrate-independent-minds-no-we-cannot-copy-brains/comment-page-1#comment-5314</link>
		<dc:creator>joeThorpe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Oct 2011 08:58:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=126790#comment-5314</guid>
		<description>Slow, one cell at a time nano replacement. Happens over the course of a few years.

Sci-fi yes, but it would solove the &quot;2 mind&quot; problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Slow, one cell at a time nano replacement. Happens over the course of a few years.</p>
<p>Sci-fi yes, but it would solove the &#8220;2 mind&#8221; problem.</p>
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		<title>By: OkinKun</title>
		<link>http://www.kurzweilai.net/achieving-substrate-independent-minds-no-we-cannot-copy-brains/comment-page-1#comment-5099</link>
		<dc:creator>OkinKun</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2011 05:07:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=126790#comment-5099</guid>
		<description>&quot;Uploading&quot; most certainly WILL be possible, someday, but it will require far more advanced technology than we can even partially comprehend right now, and an incredible level of knowledge in many areas.
And &quot;uploading&quot; is a TERRIBLE word for describing the process. &quot;transfer&quot; is a little better, but it still requires even more explanation than that.

I&#039;d imagine that it will require something like nanobots.. Something fully programmable, controllable, networked, and which can communicate directly with brain cells, in the same way that they communicated with other brain cells. With a very large number of brain-cell-imitating nanobots we might be able to use a gradual process of replacing individual cells, or at least tiny groups of cells, and have the nanobots take on those cells&#039; functions. This process would have to ensure that the communication between cells in the brain, remain relatively uninterrupted, even as they&#039;re being replaced by nanobots. At least if you want the original consciousness to be the one experiencing the transfer.
Eventually this process leaves you with a more manipulatable brain, which you can then use to perform a similar transfer process, into a Simulated construct or replacement body.

Only problem I see, is that it will take quite a while before we have the technology and the knowledge to accomplish such a hugely complex task. I can only hope I manage to live long enough. lol</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Uploading&#8221; most certainly WILL be possible, someday, but it will require far more advanced technology than we can even partially comprehend right now, and an incredible level of knowledge in many areas.<br />
And &#8220;uploading&#8221; is a TERRIBLE word for describing the process. &#8220;transfer&#8221; is a little better, but it still requires even more explanation than that.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d imagine that it will require something like nanobots.. Something fully programmable, controllable, networked, and which can communicate directly with brain cells, in the same way that they communicated with other brain cells. With a very large number of brain-cell-imitating nanobots we might be able to use a gradual process of replacing individual cells, or at least tiny groups of cells, and have the nanobots take on those cells&#8217; functions. This process would have to ensure that the communication between cells in the brain, remain relatively uninterrupted, even as they&#8217;re being replaced by nanobots. At least if you want the original consciousness to be the one experiencing the transfer.<br />
Eventually this process leaves you with a more manipulatable brain, which you can then use to perform a similar transfer process, into a Simulated construct or replacement body.</p>
<p>Only problem I see, is that it will take quite a while before we have the technology and the knowledge to accomplish such a hugely complex task. I can only hope I manage to live long enough. lol</p>
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		<title>By: eldras</title>
		<link>http://www.kurzweilai.net/achieving-substrate-independent-minds-no-we-cannot-copy-brains/comment-page-1#comment-4991</link>
		<dc:creator>eldras</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Oct 2011 05:14:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=126790#comment-4991</guid>
		<description>Es el miond humanos infinito?

Entonces, tenemos todo en nuestro interior.
¡Por supuesto! Tenemos que vivir. Tenemos que sobrevivir.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Es el miond humanos infinito?</p>
<p>Entonces, tenemos todo en nuestro interior.<br />
¡Por supuesto! Tenemos que vivir. Tenemos que sobrevivir.</p>
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		<title>By: eldras</title>
		<link>http://www.kurzweilai.net/achieving-substrate-independent-minds-no-we-cannot-copy-brains/comment-page-1#comment-4937</link>
		<dc:creator>eldras</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Oct 2011 02:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=126790#comment-4937</guid>
		<description>I dont share your conclusion nor your science.

Of course metaphore transfer is possible because t is NOT demonstrably impossible.

The brain is one path to intelligence. There are many forms of it in nature as all lfe is intelligence, in that it is survival by problem solving.
Reverse engineering the brain is only a mapping science and that is dependent on availabe computer processing.

There are many ways to describe something: one is &#039;what do it do, rather than what is it?

Also there is the advance formula:

we are building increasingly intelligent systems.

They are helping build still more intelligent systems.

At some point consummate recursion will be a fact and accelerated denoument here!

It&#039;s great ibm are so orienteering.

Our large aim is the relief of suffering and death.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dont share your conclusion nor your science.</p>
<p>Of course metaphore transfer is possible because t is NOT demonstrably impossible.</p>
<p>The brain is one path to intelligence. There are many forms of it in nature as all lfe is intelligence, in that it is survival by problem solving.<br />
Reverse engineering the brain is only a mapping science and that is dependent on availabe computer processing.</p>
<p>There are many ways to describe something: one is &#8216;what do it do, rather than what is it?</p>
<p>Also there is the advance formula:</p>
<p>we are building increasingly intelligent systems.</p>
<p>They are helping build still more intelligent systems.</p>
<p>At some point consummate recursion will be a fact and accelerated denoument here!</p>
<p>It&#8217;s great ibm are so orienteering.</p>
<p>Our large aim is the relief of suffering and death.</p>
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		<title>By: jose raul saez castillo</title>
		<link>http://www.kurzweilai.net/achieving-substrate-independent-minds-no-we-cannot-copy-brains/comment-page-1#comment-4821</link>
		<dc:creator>jose raul saez castillo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Sep 2011 20:08:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=126790#comment-4821</guid>
		<description>instalar la inteligencia  motora, pudiera ser dificil, pero trabajar con lo existente ,conocido en imágenes pudiere ser factible, entonces pudiere ser que la mente humana trabajaría mediante un patrón conocido. existiendo la posibilidad de lograr cualquier pensamiento-movilidad-incluso gran creatividad   al aportar aspectos olvidados en la materia requerida, la mente  humana es infinita en creación+ siempre adelante iluminando caminos en nuestro planeta</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>instalar la inteligencia  motora, pudiera ser dificil, pero trabajar con lo existente ,conocido en imágenes pudiere ser factible, entonces pudiere ser que la mente humana trabajaría mediante un patrón conocido. existiendo la posibilidad de lograr cualquier pensamiento-movilidad-incluso gran creatividad   al aportar aspectos olvidados en la materia requerida, la mente  humana es infinita en creación+ siempre adelante iluminando caminos en nuestro planeta</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan Flanders</title>
		<link>http://www.kurzweilai.net/achieving-substrate-independent-minds-no-we-cannot-copy-brains/comment-page-1#comment-4796</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan Flanders</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2011 17:59:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=126790#comment-4796</guid>
		<description>I really enjoyed the section about Kullback-Leibler divergence as it relates to substrate independent minds and the overhead of emulation.  I&#039;d like to share some additional thoughts:

To what extent, if any, do the properties of the substrate influence thought processes and decisions?  

Look at RAM vs a HD, and Deep Blue vs Garry Kasparov.

The simple case is trivial: Two computers solve a math problem with one solution, and each computer is identical except computer A uses a RAM disk and computer B uses a magnetic hard disk drive.  Both computers arrive at the same solution, but computer A gets the solution sooner.

But the complex case is very different from the simple case.  There are many more things to think about besides math problems with only one solution.  And a sufficiently intelligent, sentient, self-aware SIM would want to know as much as possible about the properties of its substrate, in order to devise the most effective strategies for solving problems--especially fuzzy problems with no clear right or wrong solution (if a solution exists).

Think about Deep Blue vs Chess Grandmaster Garry Kasparov.  Kasparov, by his own estimation, considered about one move per second, vs a computer that considered 200 million moves per second.  Deep Blue&#039;s advantage was brute force speed.  Kasparov&#039;s advantage was a wealth of experience and honed intuition.  Regardless of who won or lost, and regardless of whether another match was played with a faster supercomputer, the point is that Deep Blue and Kasparov each had a very different problem solving strategy as a direct result of the properties of their respective substrate.

At times, Deep Blue made an error that was obvious to Kasparov, and vice versa.  

Does it matter how a thought is represented?  Is a bit stored with electric charge identical to a bit stored with magnetic polarization?  Well, they can be transferred losslessly from one substrate to the other, so that counts for something.  But given identical starting conditions, given an intelligent, sentient, self-aware sentient mind with full knowledge of the properties of its substrate, and given a fuzzy, non-discrete problem to solve, will the two otherwise identical minds (except for their substrates with different properties) with identical initial conditions arrive at the same conclusion?

Does it matter how a thought is expressed and experienced?  Think about the same mathematical idea expressed algebraically and geometrically.  It&#039;s the same mathematical idea, but it&#039;s expressed and experienced very differently algebraically vs geometrically, and that causes us to think about the idea very differently.  In some situations, an elegant geometric expression can have an analogous algebraic expression that is a garbled mess, and vice versa.

In fuzzy, real-world situations that do not have only one discrete solution, I contend that the properties of a substrate do influence the best choice for a problem-solving strategy--even when starting conditions are otherwise identical.

To what extent will substrate choice for our SIMs alter the course of human history?

I hope I&#039;m around to find out!

Ryan Flanders
9-22-2011</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really enjoyed the section about Kullback-Leibler divergence as it relates to substrate independent minds and the overhead of emulation.  I&#8217;d like to share some additional thoughts:</p>
<p>To what extent, if any, do the properties of the substrate influence thought processes and decisions?  </p>
<p>Look at RAM vs a HD, and Deep Blue vs Garry Kasparov.</p>
<p>The simple case is trivial: Two computers solve a math problem with one solution, and each computer is identical except computer A uses a RAM disk and computer B uses a magnetic hard disk drive.  Both computers arrive at the same solution, but computer A gets the solution sooner.</p>
<p>But the complex case is very different from the simple case.  There are many more things to think about besides math problems with only one solution.  And a sufficiently intelligent, sentient, self-aware SIM would want to know as much as possible about the properties of its substrate, in order to devise the most effective strategies for solving problems&#8211;especially fuzzy problems with no clear right or wrong solution (if a solution exists).</p>
<p>Think about Deep Blue vs Chess Grandmaster Garry Kasparov.  Kasparov, by his own estimation, considered about one move per second, vs a computer that considered 200 million moves per second.  Deep Blue&#8217;s advantage was brute force speed.  Kasparov&#8217;s advantage was a wealth of experience and honed intuition.  Regardless of who won or lost, and regardless of whether another match was played with a faster supercomputer, the point is that Deep Blue and Kasparov each had a very different problem solving strategy as a direct result of the properties of their respective substrate.</p>
<p>At times, Deep Blue made an error that was obvious to Kasparov, and vice versa.  </p>
<p>Does it matter how a thought is represented?  Is a bit stored with electric charge identical to a bit stored with magnetic polarization?  Well, they can be transferred losslessly from one substrate to the other, so that counts for something.  But given identical starting conditions, given an intelligent, sentient, self-aware sentient mind with full knowledge of the properties of its substrate, and given a fuzzy, non-discrete problem to solve, will the two otherwise identical minds (except for their substrates with different properties) with identical initial conditions arrive at the same conclusion?</p>
<p>Does it matter how a thought is expressed and experienced?  Think about the same mathematical idea expressed algebraically and geometrically.  It&#8217;s the same mathematical idea, but it&#8217;s expressed and experienced very differently algebraically vs geometrically, and that causes us to think about the idea very differently.  In some situations, an elegant geometric expression can have an analogous algebraic expression that is a garbled mess, and vice versa.</p>
<p>In fuzzy, real-world situations that do not have only one discrete solution, I contend that the properties of a substrate do influence the best choice for a problem-solving strategy&#8211;even when starting conditions are otherwise identical.</p>
<p>To what extent will substrate choice for our SIMs alter the course of human history?</p>
<p>I hope I&#8217;m around to find out!</p>
<p>Ryan Flanders<br />
9-22-2011</p>
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		<title>By: markduwe</title>
		<link>http://www.kurzweilai.net/achieving-substrate-independent-minds-no-we-cannot-copy-brains/comment-page-1#comment-4723</link>
		<dc:creator>markduwe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Sep 2011 11:38:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=126790#comment-4723</guid>
		<description>It seems to me that the best way to &#039;upload&#039; a brain is to induce &#039;cortical mappin, or actually re-mapping&#039;. Traumatic brain injury causes the brain to reorder memory and sensory input and output areas. There is much work to be done in this area, but I&#039;m thinking that if you could induce re-mapping by fooling the brain into think it had a various series of traumatic injuries, one might be to compell the brain to transfer all of it&#039;s data stored into the only part of the brain that was not traumatized, a solid state memory chip.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that the best way to &#8216;upload&#8217; a brain is to induce &#8216;cortical mappin, or actually re-mapping&#8217;. Traumatic brain injury causes the brain to reorder memory and sensory input and output areas. There is much work to be done in this area, but I&#8217;m thinking that if you could induce re-mapping by fooling the brain into think it had a various series of traumatic injuries, one might be to compell the brain to transfer all of it&#8217;s data stored into the only part of the brain that was not traumatized, a solid state memory chip.</p>
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		<title>By: tim the realist</title>
		<link>http://www.kurzweilai.net/achieving-substrate-independent-minds-no-we-cannot-copy-brains/comment-page-1#comment-4679</link>
		<dc:creator>tim the realist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Sep 2011 12:30:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=126790#comment-4679</guid>
		<description>The uploading process has already begun.  The current interfaces to neural prosthetics currently operate through sensory channels.  Symbolic abstraction was the beginning of this process using sounds / words and pictures / writing to record human thoughts in a different substrate.  The scale and fideltiy of this has continued to improve through the vast collection of recorded human thoughts called the internet.  Cell phones have allowed vastly improved interpersonal communication capabilities far exceeding our natural abilities.  People rely more and more on neural prosthetics as a normal part of their daily functions.  As these capabilities expand it represents a slow progression of transfer to alternate substrates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The uploading process has already begun.  The current interfaces to neural prosthetics currently operate through sensory channels.  Symbolic abstraction was the beginning of this process using sounds / words and pictures / writing to record human thoughts in a different substrate.  The scale and fideltiy of this has continued to improve through the vast collection of recorded human thoughts called the internet.  Cell phones have allowed vastly improved interpersonal communication capabilities far exceeding our natural abilities.  People rely more and more on neural prosthetics as a normal part of their daily functions.  As these capabilities expand it represents a slow progression of transfer to alternate substrates.</p>
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		<title>By: Report on the fourth conference on artificial general intelligence &#124; KurzweilAI</title>
		<link>http://www.kurzweilai.net/achieving-substrate-independent-minds-no-we-cannot-copy-brains/comment-page-1#comment-4590</link>
		<dc:creator>Report on the fourth conference on artificial general intelligence &#124; KurzweilAI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Sep 2011 20:03:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=126790#comment-4590</guid>
		<description>[...] is probably the world’s most successful advocate of mind uploading, or what he now calls &#8220;substrate independent minds.&#8221; Most of the AGI field today is only loosely connected to neuroscience; and yet, in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is probably the world’s most successful advocate of mind uploading, or what he now calls &#8220;substrate independent minds.&#8221; Most of the AGI field today is only loosely connected to neuroscience; and yet, in [...]</p>
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		<title>By: oneoverzero &#187; Thoughts on mind uploads and brain copying</title>
		<link>http://www.kurzweilai.net/achieving-substrate-independent-minds-no-we-cannot-copy-brains/comment-page-1#comment-4562</link>
		<dc:creator>oneoverzero &#187; Thoughts on mind uploads and brain copying</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Aug 2011 11:15:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=126790#comment-4562</guid>
		<description>[...] on mind uploads and brain copying [ &#8594; ]   August 31, 2011   Tags: brain, computation, mind [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on mind uploads and brain copying [ &rarr; ]   August 31, 2011   Tags: brain, computation, mind [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brian H</title>
		<link>http://www.kurzweilai.net/achieving-substrate-independent-minds-no-we-cannot-copy-brains/comment-page-1#comment-4535</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Aug 2011 17:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=126790#comment-4535</guid>
		<description>Uploading is not possible. If you can replicate a mind in a substrate, you can do it simultaneously, or serially, in more than one. Each may be aware, self-aware, and confident it is the original. If the original still exists, they are obviously all wrong. Even if it doesn&#039;t, only one could be right, so they&#039;re all wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uploading is not possible. If you can replicate a mind in a substrate, you can do it simultaneously, or serially, in more than one. Each may be aware, self-aware, and confident it is the original. If the original still exists, they are obviously all wrong. Even if it doesn&#8217;t, only one could be right, so they&#8217;re all wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Mind up-loading, funkar det eller inte? &#171; SINGULARITY ECONOMICS</title>
		<link>http://www.kurzweilai.net/achieving-substrate-independent-minds-no-we-cannot-copy-brains/comment-page-1#comment-4511</link>
		<dc:creator>Mind up-loading, funkar det eller inte? &#171; SINGULARITY ECONOMICS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2011 14:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=126790#comment-4511</guid>
		<description>[...] citat i sammanhanget: So, despite objections about the differences between biological and other hardware [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] citat i sammanhanget: So, despite objections about the differences between biological and other hardware [...]</p>
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