Comments on: An information-processing approach to the origin of life http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life Accelerating Intelligence Fri, 24 May 2013 09:48:12 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.1 By: mehran http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-87382 mehran Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:58:37 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-87382 information domain and energy domain best classification. information domain and energy domain best classification.

]]> By: Jim Mooney http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-75860 Jim Mooney Fri, 21 Dec 2012 18:56:56 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-75860 I'm just reading Hofstadter's "I Am a Strange Loop" and he feels consciousness is "emergent." Although all laws of the microlevel are observed, that is totally different from the emergent system at the macrolevel. I’m just reading Hofstadter’s “I Am a Strange Loop” and he feels consciousness is “emergent.” Although all laws of the microlevel are observed, that is totally different from the emergent system at the macrolevel.

]]> By: hal http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-74143 hal Wed, 19 Dec 2012 15:46:41 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-74143 thank you. the billion person platform of social media is built on the sharing of product which works for each person, or cell. this macrocosm functions not unlike the chemical reaction of an electron escaping a carbon atom it seems. anyways, thank you snake oil salesperson. thank you. the billion person platform of social media is built on the sharing of product which works for each person, or cell. this macrocosm functions not unlike the chemical reaction of an electron escaping a carbon atom it seems. anyways, thank you snake oil salesperson.

]]> By: Snake Oil Baron http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-73627 Snake Oil Baron Wed, 19 Dec 2012 00:04:00 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-73627 From the linked article: "One of the great mysteries of life is how it began. What physical process transformed a nonliving mix of chemicals into something as complex as a living cell?" I guess I would propose that the presence of a network (of reactions) which persists over time, can change and be selected for or against while being pushed out of equilibrium would be the process which transforms a non living mix of chemicals into a living cell. Networks of matter, energy, and spacetime for it to occur in seem to be the fundamental ingredients of life. From the linked article:
“One of the great mysteries of life is how it began. What physical process transformed a nonliving mix of chemicals into something as complex as a living cell?”

I guess I would propose that the presence of a network (of reactions) which persists over time, can change and be selected for or against while being pushed out of equilibrium would be the process which transforms a non living mix of chemicals into a living cell.

Networks of matter, energy, and spacetime for it to occur in seem to be the fundamental ingredients of life.

]]> By: Snake Oil Baron http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-73621 Snake Oil Baron Tue, 18 Dec 2012 23:47:16 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-73621 Perhaps, if one looks at the concentrations of the products and reactants of chemical reactions as being information with chemistry being the processing agent, one could see the chemical equilibrium equations in a chemical network as instructions. "If concentration of A exceeds KEq then shift the reaction rate to re-establish equilibrium." So there is data (chemical concentrations), instructions (equilibrium reactions) and a machine to process the instructions (the universe or laws of physics). Adding more reactions which match reactants and products with other equilibrium equations adds both information and instructions to the network and networks which increase in size to acquire new space are more likely to persist--Darwinian selection kicks in. A network which has an equation driven away from equilibrium by an energy source such as geothermal or chemical or solar input, pushes the whole system away from equilibrium which allows equilibrium reactions which would not otherwise proceed, to do so. A network will lose reactants and products at the edge of it's range and parts of it may break off at times. But if a network starts making a product which forms bubbles it would help hold member reactions in a confined space so they wouldn't dilute at the edges. Darwinian trophies of survival get handed out again. :-) Later, things like enzymes and methods of "remembering" how to make them are added to the tool kit but the main point would be that a physical quantity (concentration) became a type of information that could be processed (by physics) and formed a network (via the links between reactions. I'm not sure if this meets the desire of those behind this new view to shift focus away from "hardware" but it seems to for me. Perhaps, if one looks at the concentrations of the products and reactants of chemical reactions as being information with chemistry being the processing agent, one could see the chemical equilibrium equations in a chemical network as instructions. “If concentration of A exceeds KEq then shift the reaction rate to re-establish equilibrium.”

So there is data (chemical concentrations), instructions (equilibrium reactions) and a machine to process the instructions (the universe or laws of physics). Adding more reactions which match reactants and products with other equilibrium equations adds both information and instructions to the network and networks which increase in size to acquire new space are more likely to persist–Darwinian selection kicks in.

A network which has an equation driven away from equilibrium by an energy source such as geothermal or chemical or solar input, pushes the whole system away from equilibrium which allows equilibrium reactions which would not otherwise proceed, to do so. A network will lose reactants and products at the edge of it’s range and parts of it may break off at times. But if a network starts making a product which forms bubbles it would help hold member reactions in a confined space so they wouldn’t dilute at the edges. Darwinian trophies of survival get handed out again. :-)

Later, things like enzymes and methods of “remembering” how to make them are added to the tool kit but the main point would be that a physical quantity (concentration) became a type of information that could be processed (by physics) and formed a network (via the links between reactions.

I’m not sure if this meets the desire of those behind this new view to shift focus away from “hardware” but it seems to for me.

]]> By: Miguel Antonio Cortés Muñoz http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-73563 Miguel Antonio Cortés Muñoz Tue, 18 Dec 2012 22:02:48 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-73563 It is an attempt for a fully developed, systematized theory describing how life works, while Tierra was an experiment related to the same idea. It is an attempt for a fully developed, systematized theory describing how life works, while Tierra was an experiment related to the same idea.

]]> By: Snake Oil Baron http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-73478 Snake Oil Baron Tue, 18 Dec 2012 19:39:32 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-73478 Maybe it is a limitation on my part but while I have no trouble with Darwinian processes working on pre-biotic chemistry, top down information processing before living systems seems hard to fathom. Why would a non-living system just start processing information and affecting the system on a collective scale? Did I miss something crucial? Maybe it is a limitation on my part but while I have no trouble with Darwinian processes working on pre-biotic chemistry, top down information processing before living systems seems hard to fathom. Why would a non-living system just start processing information and affecting the system on a collective scale? Did I miss something crucial?

]]> By: Bri http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-73170 Bri Tue, 18 Dec 2012 10:49:42 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-73170 I tend to agree with " the field", but I don't think they'll be able to find it with a microscope. In reference to " the yogis" it's not deeper, it's everywhere., and I don't think it's electro magnetic. It's kinda like we swim in a sea. I tend to agree with ” the field”, but I don’t think they’ll be able to find it with a microscope. In reference to ” the yogis” it’s not deeper, it’s everywhere., and I don’t think it’s electro magnetic. It’s kinda like we swim in a sea.

]]> By: gregorylent http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-73135 gregorylent Tue, 18 Dec 2012 10:07:26 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-73135 getting closer to conceptualizing "the field" ... yogis smile encouragingly, say, keep going, just a bit deeper getting closer to conceptualizing “the field” …

yogis smile encouragingly, say, keep going, just a bit deeper

]]> By: Gabriel http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-72950 Gabriel Tue, 18 Dec 2012 04:04:34 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-72950 There has always been something so....pleasing about this way of looking at things; at the "software" rather then substrate...it emphasizes that things are more then the 'sum of all parts'. Aside from sounding sensible, it's a very comfortable way of looking at things. It's something at the very core of transhumanism and the idea that Poshumanism is something that doesn't exist, because if humanity is the species transcends limits, then their is never a point where we lose that (i.e. our humanity) no matter how far we go. There has always been something so….pleasing about this way of looking at things; at the “software” rather then substrate…it emphasizes that things are more then the ‘sum of all parts’. Aside from sounding sensible, it’s a very comfortable way of looking at things.

It’s something at the very core of transhumanism and the idea that Poshumanism is something that doesn’t exist, because if humanity is the species transcends limits, then their is never a point where we lose that (i.e. our humanity) no matter how far we go.

]]> By: Joe Cash http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-72861 Joe Cash Tue, 18 Dec 2012 01:19:40 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-72861 Charlie and Bri: I see you're hurling insults rather than offering your superior alternative. Bet you don't have one. Bet you don't want others to try. Charlie and Bri: I see you’re hurling insults rather than offering your superior alternative. Bet you don’t have one. Bet you don’t want others to try.

]]> By: LME http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-72832 LME Tue, 18 Dec 2012 00:27:45 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-72832 I liked this article very much, and thought the writing was not pretentious, just densely packed. I totally agree with the idea that life and biology are not synonymous, with the biology a paradigm that emerged following the emergence of the molecular world via the chemistry paradigm. The time scale of biological evolution was many magnitudes faster than the evolution of the chemical environment into a molecular world, but as we shift into the information paradigm, incorporating biology the way the biology incorporated chemistry, the evolutionary time scale will become orders of magnitude faster again. The article seemed correct to me in understanding life as being characterized by the way information is processed, rather than the substrate doing the processing. As to WHAT is evolving, I leave it up to our imagination. I enjoyed Ray Kurzweil's comment at the end of Transcendent Man when he was asked if God exists. He answered "Not yet." I liked this article very much, and thought the writing was not pretentious, just densely packed. I totally agree with the idea that life and biology are not synonymous, with the biology a paradigm that emerged following the emergence of the molecular world via the chemistry paradigm. The time scale of biological evolution was many magnitudes faster than the evolution of the chemical environment into a molecular world, but as we shift into the information paradigm, incorporating biology the way the biology incorporated chemistry, the evolutionary time scale will become orders of magnitude faster again. The article seemed correct to me in understanding life as being characterized by the way information is processed, rather than the substrate doing the processing. As to WHAT is evolving, I leave it up to our imagination. I enjoyed Ray Kurzweil’s comment at the end of Transcendent Man when he was asked if God exists. He answered “Not yet.”

]]> By: Jonesyman http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-72751 Jonesyman Mon, 17 Dec 2012 22:13:22 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-72751 Fascinatingly esoteric, yet functional theory. It has a certain beauty to it. As Bri pointed out this does smack of a certain "ghost in the machine" feel and that is an unavoidable bugbear for any theory that treats phenomena as non-local. I foresee many taking issue with the notion of defining life in such a holistic fashion rather than tying it to some very specific "magic mechanism" that separates non-living chemicals from organisms. In short: Trippy man, trippy! Fascinatingly esoteric, yet functional theory. It has a certain beauty to it.

As Bri pointed out this does smack of a certain “ghost in the machine” feel and that is an unavoidable bugbear for any theory that treats phenomena as non-local. I foresee many taking issue with the notion of defining life in such a holistic fashion rather than tying it to some very specific “magic mechanism” that separates non-living chemicals from organisms.

In short: Trippy man, trippy!

]]> By: Charlie http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-72681 Charlie Mon, 17 Dec 2012 20:32:34 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-72681 So much terse wordplay! Oy! Vey! This former Biology Major (way back in the last century) stopped reading when I came across, "The authors expect that, by re-shaping the conceptual landscape in this fundamental way, not just the origin of life, but other major transitions will be explained — for example, the leap from single cells to multi-cellularity." And, then, ...."“The most important features of biological information (i.e. functionality) are decisively nonlocal,” ........that word "functionality" is so very pretentious, stumbling over itself and skinning its knees......so I stopped reading. I tried. What has "peer review" so far indicated? So much terse wordplay!

Oy! Vey!

This former Biology Major (way back in the last century) stopped reading when I came across, “The authors expect that, by re-shaping the conceptual landscape in this fundamental way, not just the origin of life, but other major transitions will be explained — for example, the leap from single cells to multi-cellularity.”

And, then, ….”“The most important features of biological information (i.e. functionality) are decisively nonlocal,” ……..that word “functionality” is so very pretentious, stumbling over itself and skinning its knees……so I stopped reading. I tried.

What has “peer review” so far indicated?

]]> By: Bri http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-72640 Bri Mon, 17 Dec 2012 19:08:05 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-72640 I don't know. Seems like the " hallmarks of life" section is doing everything in it's power to not say ghost in the machine. It's all just such an illusion. A game of magic. Certainly seems simulated. Another home video playing on the holodeck. I don’t know. Seems like the ” hallmarks of life” section is doing everything in it’s power to not say ghost in the machine. It’s all just such an illusion. A game of magic. Certainly seems simulated. Another home video playing on the holodeck.

]]> By: Arn http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-72617 Arn Mon, 17 Dec 2012 18:29:14 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-72617 Last comment in bad need of a re-write! Last comment in bad need of a re-write!

]]> By: Dan Aminoff http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-72614 Dan Aminoff Mon, 17 Dec 2012 18:23:28 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-72614 Just viewed Daniel Dennett's recent "Evolution of Reasons" talk at WSU ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab1TaROJ5bo ) which seems to get right to the heart of this - without the need to overthrow Darwin! Also looking forward to reading the related book he recommended in his talk" "Wetware: A Computer in Every Living Cell". Just viewed Daniel Dennett’s recent “Evolution of Reasons” talk at WSU ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab1TaROJ5bo ) which seems to get right to the heart of this – without the need to overthrow Darwin! Also looking forward to reading the related book he recommended in his talk” “Wetware: A Computer in Every Living Cell”.

]]> By: hal http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-72607 hal Mon, 17 Dec 2012 18:06:34 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-72607 exactly. life is exactly what it is each and every moment in and with the perfections and imperfections. existence supersedes human morality of right and wrong and is trumped by the primary rule of survival. Survival is muted by dual primary rules of the individual and the collective concept of life itself. i contend the possibility exists to reach a level of knowledge about the information currently outside our collection accepted as fact to understand that life is imbued in the fabric of matter, energy, and unknown dark "stuff" standing ready at all times to gather information in a fashion and manner we call life. The minerals in a rock and the same type in our bodies are equally ready, one is more actively involved in the process while the other stands ready. this whole diorama stands on its own and functions with or without a precondition of a creator or essence and does not speak to the question of an afterlife which are still further down the road of our information gathering. searching for signs of life outside our planet will only add to our base and not answer the question plaguing mankind. if i am right life is a permanent aspect of the universe and makes our current moment here at what appears to be a apogee of the human experience. perhaps we are a bubble or a string in a multiverse with different laws and rules. the information description starts with the concept that we exist right now in an infinite eternal universe. our view of time may indeed stop at the moment prior to the big bang, but the digits and increments everything have stasis in chaos. exactly. life is exactly what it is each and every moment in and with the perfections and imperfections. existence supersedes human morality of right and wrong and is trumped by the primary rule of survival. Survival is muted by dual primary rules of the individual and the collective concept of life itself.

i contend the possibility exists to reach a level of knowledge about the information currently outside our collection accepted as fact to understand that life is imbued in the fabric of matter, energy, and unknown dark “stuff” standing ready at all times to gather information in a fashion and manner we call life. The minerals in a rock and the same type in our bodies are equally ready, one is more actively involved in the process while the other stands ready.

this whole diorama stands on its own and functions with or without a precondition of a creator or essence and does not speak to the question of an afterlife which are still further down the road of our information gathering. searching for signs of life outside our planet will only add to our base and not answer the question plaguing mankind.

if i am right life is a permanent aspect of the universe and makes our current moment here at what appears to be a apogee of the human experience. perhaps we are a bubble or a string in a multiverse with different laws and rules. the information description starts with the concept that we exist right now in an infinite eternal universe. our view of time may indeed stop at the moment prior to the big bang, but the digits and increments everything have stasis in chaos.

]]> By: Prof. Dr. Hugo de Garis http://www.kurzweilai.net/an-information-processing-approach-to-the-origin-of-life/comment-page-1#comment-72566 Prof. Dr. Hugo de Garis Mon, 17 Dec 2012 16:50:04 +0000 http://www.kurzweilai.net/?p=174643#comment-72566 Tom Ray's "Tierra" How does this work differ essentially from Tom Ray's work on Tierra of two decades ago? (Tierra was a software evolution program that started with a population of "ancestor" pseudo DNA stings of operators, that mutated and spontaneously generated parasites, resistance, punctuated equilibrium, etc.) I suggest readers google the terms Tierra and Tom Ray, the most significant piece of work in the field of artificial life. Cheers, Prof Dr Hugo de Garis profhugodegaris@yahoo.com http://profhugodegaris.wordpress.com ==== Tom Ray’s “Tierra”

How does this work differ essentially from Tom Ray’s work on Tierra of two decades ago? (Tierra was a software evolution program that started with a population of “ancestor” pseudo DNA stings of operators, that mutated and spontaneously generated parasites, resistance, punctuated equilibrium, etc.) I suggest readers google the terms Tierra and Tom Ray, the most significant piece of work in the field of artificial life.

Cheers, Prof Dr Hugo de Garis
profhugodegaris@yahoo.com
http://profhugodegaris.wordpress.com

====

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