Ask Ray | Science and God
March 21, 2011
Hi Ray,
It was nice to see you again at the Transcendent Man film screening. I enjoyed the movie and the discussion. The way I see it, over time we have been discovering the intelligence that is manifested in nature. This intelligence is much greater than our own — however, piece by piece, we have been stitching it together.
The point is that we have been making these discoveries at an ever-accelerating pace and in 40 years we will discover God!
Warmest regards,
John
John,
That’s a very thoughtful way to put it. So you agree with my final thoughts in the movie. I would put the discovering God part a little later in this century, but that’s a detail.
All the best,
Ray
Ray,
Since I was 13, I’ve thought that religion isn’t a serious way of discovering God. I stumbled through life to find science (eventually physics) as a possible route to understanding the marvelous wonder that nature presents to us. It is because we are a part of nature that we have this unique opportunity to unravel the mysteries of life and existence. It’s really a true romantic adventure.
Curiously enough, science and religion both were created at the same time as a result of an emotional reaction to this amazing grand design. They just took different routes to discovering God. Now science and technology will get us to a point where we will have a better understanding of what God really is. You have made a profound contribution to the path to this understanding. I hope people appreciate this.
Best,
John
John,
No one can dispute that ideas about God and spirituality reside in our brains even if one feels that their origin transcends and precedes human thought. Science is supposed to describe reality, so if we regard spiritual thoughts as real, there is no reason why science cannot provide us with a deeper understanding of them.
— Ray
Ray,
Insightful and true!
— John
Ray,
I have been thinking about self-organization and how pervasive it is in the universe. We generally associate this with biological systems, but I believe that there are examples in physical science. For example, I believe the periodic table is an example of this as well as the shell model of the nucleus, the quark model, etc.
What are the underlying principles which give rise to this? They are the existence of discrete energy levels, the principle of indistinguishability (you cannot distinguish identical particles in quantum mechanics) and the Pauli Principle, which is deeply rooted in the spin statistics theorem in quantum field theory. You can explain all of this self-organization based upon these three facts of life.
Furthermore, chemical bonding also follows from these principles — so my guess is one can make sense out of biological self-organization, as well, from these principles. Could self-organization have a deeper meaning than even this?
Some have speculated that self-organization also applies to space-time. If you think of space-time as made up of 4 dimensional volume elements and you make up space-time from these through a Monte Carlo simulation you find that the universe is infinite dimensional.
However, if you require that the time axes of these volume elements be stitched together according to the causal axis of time, then space-time is 4 dimensional. In this approach, space-time is smooth down to the Planck mass, and below that it becomes infinite dimensional. So causality, if assumed, leads to this description of space-time as a self-organizing system. In other approaches to space-time, such as Hawking’s, the goal is to derive causality as a consequence of a theory of space time.
Anyway, I believe that self-organization may be a fundamental property of the universe, and we may be getting closer to understanding the fundamental principles that govern this phenomenon.
— John
John,
Those are some interesting reflections on self-organization and emergent properties. Laws on one level arise from emergent properties on a lower level.
Consider thermodynamics, which models the inherent unpredictability of molecular movement in a gas but nonetheless results in “laws” that are surprisingly predictive to a very high degree of accuracy.
As an interesting aside, the evolution of intelligent systems is not inconsistent with the second law which implies increasing entropy (actually, it implies no decreases in entropy). One of the enabling factors for evolution, therefore, is sufficient chaos to provide the choices for evolutionary progress.
Incidentally, my law of accelerating returns is similar to thermodynamics in this regard, in that the inherent unpredictability of individuals and individual projects nonetheless gives rise to a predictable phenomenon in terms of the smooth exponential increase in basic measures of price-performance and capacity.
The key enabling factor in our universe that allows evolution at any level is the ability to encode information. Fairly simple rules can then result in substantial self-organization.
Wolfram showed how a simple cellular automata rule can result in many of the patterns we see in nature.
Subatomic particles can encode information, and organize into atoms and the repetitive properties of the periodic table, as you point out. Atoms organized into molecules provide rich opportunities for encoding information — especially the carbon atom, which can form connections in four directions. This gave rise to biology with information encoded in a particular molecule, DNA.
The evolution of organisms (as guided by DNA) gave rise to structures such as nervous systems and brains that could encode information in neural structures. Those brains combined with an opposable appendage gave rise to tools and the evolution of technology with information encoded in the tools, most notably computers.
We are now in what I call the fifth epoch, in which we are unlocking the secrets of biology and using these biologically inspired paradigms to guide our technology.
How did the universe first adopt this ability to encode information? Some people have hypothesized an evolutionary process of universes. Those that failed to encode information never evolved anything interesting and thus either die out or just remain boring universes.
There are various versions of the anthropic principle to explain how we got here. For example, if we didn’t live in such a universe, we wouldn’t be here talking about it.
You mention an infinite dimensional space from which our 4 dimensional space-time is an emergent feature. I can imagine n dimensional spaces and that is only because of our powers of analogy. The novel Flatland, describing a two dimensional spatial world, did a good job of illustrating that analogy. I have difficulty imagining an infinite number of dimensions.
For one thing, that would require an infinite amount of information to specify one point (unless there were rules that limit the amount of information as we see in quantum mechanics).
— Ray
Comments (8)
by Doug Socks
I am an atheist who beleives in God. While you might beleive that is a contradition in terms, you would be wrong.
The Real God is not some supernatural contstruct of our imaginations but rather the natural conclusion of the technological singularity.
Given a closed, rather than open universe, would it not then follow that the God at the end of time would also be the programmer at the beginning of it?
Yes, that is assuming quite a bit, but like any form of speculation it is far more fun than it is functional, and I see no reason to embrace nihilisim in the light of a far more probable end state to universal intelligence.
by Ivan
Hi,
After working several years on AI, I changed my opinion and concluded that my robots are not destinated to serve mankind only, but rather god. I am now in the process of introducing faith and spirituality in them, but I have the feeling that they have already begun to act like angels. The artificial singularity seems to have been already overrun by spirituality.
by TheVenusProject.Com
Hello Ray..
As we all know we are living rather Accelerated times when Science and Technology is developing an ever accelerated pace and even the rate of acceleration is increasing too..
But still todays Humanity is still stuck up in Middle Age in terms of its Social Organization and Social System.. .We are currently living in a world where 1% of the world population own 40% of the worlds resources and almost 80% of the world population are living in poverty and more than half of which are living in day to day hunger.. Todays Monetary Based System which is Profit Oriented at ANY COST .. is jusit further debilitating this Social Stratification and Social Class gap widenings.. Poor are getting poorer.. rich are getting richer.. Corporotocracy has invaded Politicians via bribes and influences.. FED and all other Central Banks are being strictly controlled by Few Extremely Wealthy and Influential Families such as Rockerfeller and Rothschild.. JP Morgan.. They are funding every representatives election campaigns and every presidents election campaigns either openly or covertly.. and thus controlling the whole governments all around the world with their Miltary Industrial Complex and Bought out Mass Media.. and of course via their Privately Owned Federal Reserve Bank which relentlessly prints more money out of thin air and further enriching the rich via the increasing Interest rates.. especially in the third world countries.. Doesn’t it seem that one day general public would bo so angry that they would literally want to eradicate the whole rich and those gangsters who are manipulating all the atrocities going on in the world? It seems that if we do not Stop the Monetary System there is a greater possibility that desperate hungry, poor, young people would just do everything to blow up and fight with the “System” which favors the rich and gets rid of the unwanted “poors” and exploits them further for its own interest..
Solutions are offered by the Venus Project –www.thevenusproject.com and the Zeitgeist Movement..
Have you watched Zeitgeist Documentaries? http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com ?
I really would like to hear your opinion about these issues.. How can we solve all this? and waht should we do? And please watch Zeitgeist Documentaries and inform your thoughts..
Wait for your replies.
by iPan
The simplest expression of God, if you want to avoid the cultural trappings, and find something that can be applied universally is this:
God is an Asymptote.
From Wiki:
In analytic geometry, an asymptote of a curve is a line such that the distance between the curve and the line approaches zero as they tend to infinity.
I like this because it transcends cultural boundaries, but obviously makes room for all of God’s attributes (omni-…)
by RobinSongs
NakedApe, humanity will be upgraded eventually which is the whole point. But it still doesn’t answer the question of who or what created evolution.
by NakedApe
Yes, I am confused also. Why do otherwise very intelligent people, including Albert Einstein, keep babbling about some Big Ape in the sky? Are they just using “God” as a metaphor for the wonder of the Universe and all the things we still haven’t managed to explain? If so, then they should just say so. Or are they just pandering to the drooling idiots who, for millennia, have been using superstitious ideologies to terrorize their fellow human beings and obtain power which they don’t even come close to deserving? It is high time that the intelligent people of the world united and told the religious numbskulls to take a hike into oblivion and allow the rest of us to enjoy an ever progressive, humanistic, non-misogynistic, non-homophobic, non-jingoistic and non-racist society where everyone can fulfill her or his potential and achieve the greatest personal happiness possible. Otherwise why be alive? Oh yea, so we can enjoy Paradise after we are dead! What a bunch of nonsense!
Face it folks. There is no Big Hairy Patriarch up in the Sky, watching over us, his little improved apes. We are self-organized minerals who, through evolution, achieved intelligence over 4.5 billion years of this planet’s existence. That is a mind-boggling wonder in itself and we don’t need to bow to ignorance and stupidity to appreciate it. We are “star-stuff” as Carl Sagan put it. Bask in the glory of that scientific fact and not some non-existent, anthropomorphic entity. Thank you for reading and have a good life.
by TheSingularityIsGood
Dear Ray,
My husband and I are your fans and followers. We are so impressed by the movie Transcendent Man, which we watched the other night. Your personal story touched our lives. Your mission to defy death is a noble one. I, too, fear death the way you do only that I doubt if I am disciplined enough to take 250 pills a day. My background is the humanities and my husband’s business but we both admire science and especially the “science of the future” so to speak. I am particularly fascinated by AI. The idea of having a smart machine understanding our needs and fulfilling them is very tempting. I was wondering if, in theory, one day we could create a man/cyborg/robot/half machine/half man who would encompass several fictional characters gathered from books and films, a so-called prototype of all desired characteristics. I also wish to live at a time where that special robotic blood cell is available for our use…Would not that be lovely if we store no more fat and the Type 1 diabetes my husband suffers from be resolved?
We wonder what your thoughts are on Fusion Power. You mentioned solar panels but isn’t Fusion even better? My husband had interviewed personnel in the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and could not be happier speaking with those great minds. Although I somewhat fear to lose some of our humanity, I am all for “improvement”. Life is difficult enough and I would enjoy a “godlike” existence. I wonder about your views about Jung and the film Knowing, as well as The Road and Limitless. With all the natural disasters going on, do you think we will make it to The Singularity? The film Artificial Intelligence is one of my favorites although it makes me very sad. I think we would need to consider compassion for those “machines” as well, not just for humans. We have watched and read so much by Carl Sagan, Phillip Dick and Arthur Clarke, as well as Asimov and Heinlein. Your work is sacred for us as it can save the human race from itself. Personally, I regard you as our next Einstein and DaVinci if not much better than them.
I wish we could attend the Singularity University but we live on the other coast…Perhaps we could visit you in the MIT for a lecture or a seminar one day? Thank you so much for what you have been doing for humanity. Best Wishes. We hope your vision will create a better future for us all.
by rbwilli
I’m confused; how is “finding God” a logical conclusion of science, or the Singularity, or anything? Wouldn’t it make more sense that, upon greatly improving our knowledge and intelligence, we would abandon the myths invented by profoundly ignorant beings of the past?
Sincerely,
Profoundly Ignorant