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		Argument for "free will" by Dinesh D'Souza posted on 11/02/2009 10:28 PM by exapted	[Top] [Show Index] [Reply to this post]
	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcunc_hQ8U8 FF to 4:00 Dinesh D'Souza: ******** I mean I could put this, put this microphone down and go sit down! Are the, is the firing of my neurons in my head determining my decision? Is it telling me one way or the other? No!! I can go either way!! I speak..... I stop! So, the dimension of free will.... would seem to suggest.... that there is a part of us..... a part of us..... that one may say... can over-ride, over-ride the laws of nature --- now in what way? Obviously if I throw this microphone, it's... it's trajectory, it's parabola like motion, it's it it will fall to the ground in obedience to the laws of gravity, I admit all that!! But my decision to throw it? I would suggest is undeTERmined. And why? Think about it! Imagine if all our actions WERE determined. If that were true, there would be no point in having this debate! There would be no point in us having universities! There would be no point in having morality! Because you could never say to someone, "You SHOULDN'T do this, you mustn't do that, this isn't right", because they would answer, "What choice do I have in the matter?" You can't go to Hitler or the Nazis and say, "You shouldn't wipe out an entire population" cause THEY would say, "Well my neurons made me DO it!" ******** [Reply]

		Re: Argument for "free will" by Dinesh D'Souza posted on 11/03/2009 10:00 AM by Virgilic	[Top] [Show Index] [Reply to this post]
	OMG, this guy actually writes books? LOL [Reply] [Parent]

		Re: Argument for "free will" by Dinesh D'Souza posted on 11/03/2009 10:10 AM by doojie	[Top] [Show Index] [Reply to this post]
	He merely argues for something outside the cause/effect paradigm. The problem is, there is no outside reference to determine the "free will" of his act to throw the microphone. If it were programmed to be so, then he would do it, still assuming it was his choice. This, I think, is just another aspect of Godel's self reference paradox. There are simply some things we can't asnwer either way, and freedom is bound within that undecidablity. D'Souza seems to be arguimng for the traditional concept of Christian free will, but he would have to contend with Paul's statment in Romans 8:29-30 that God already knows his children, has known them from the beginning(Ephesians 1:4) and glorifies them. This is fully consistent with the idea of an omniscient God, and Paul further argues in Romans 9:16-22 that there are simply no algorithms, no decision procedure by which we may get from here to God. If we look at D'ouza's argument from another perspective, he's merely saying what has already been stated in the study of the brain and human intelligence. Due to the complexity of the brain's neurons and the mechanisms, our "freedom" may simply be the result of our inability to understand those processes. The apostle Paul also dealt with this nearly 2000 years ago:"For I know that in me(in my flesh) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not". The RSV version says "I do not understand my actions". Essentially, Paul describes two levels of brain functions "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind..." Assuming Dawkins is correxct ablout the genetic replicative algorithm, the "other law of my members' will direct organization towards that replication of ideas. Culturally, we will define 'free will" within a collectively accepted context of decisions. That's genetic, nothing more. [Reply] [Parent]

		Re: Argument for "free will" by Dinesh D'Souza posted on 11/03/2009 2:19 PM by funkervogt	[Top] [Show Index] [Reply to this post]
	Dinesh is an idiot. I've seen him speak before. Let's all stop mentioning this fool on this forum. [Reply] [Parent]

		Re: Argument for "free will" by Dinesh D'Souza posted on 11/03/2009 3:14 PM by exapted	[Top] [Show Index] [Reply to this post]
	The following snippet should be included in any post about D'Souza, so that people know who they're discussing: "Are the, is the firing of my neurons in my head determining my decision? Is it telling me one way or the other? No!! I can go either way!! I speak..... I stop!" --Dinesh D'Souza One could attempt to apologize for him and guess that he was saying something sort of similar to what Ray Kurzweil has said regarding intelligence in the world, that intelligence is somehow a more deterministic force than what we know as the laws of physics --- but that is not what D'Souza is saying. D'Souza is invoking a medieval, moralistic interpretation of the laws of physics, ignoring the advances in cognitive science and philosophy in the 20th century, and underhandedly appealing to dualist notions of mind and free will. It is intellectually shady to the point that it is amusing. And at the same time it is very depressing that so many people cling to such backward lines of thought. "I speak..... I stop!" LOL [Reply] [Parent]